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Today is Easter Sunday. Two days ago, on Good Friday, I had a very interesting conversation with Dennis Kucinich, the former Cleveland mayor and Ohio Congressman who ran for president twice, managed RFK Jr.’s presidential campaign through late 2023, and recently published an eloquent Good Friday article on “The Passion of Palestine”.
State Department whistleblower and author J. Michael Springmann and I discussed Kucinich’s article on the special Easter Weekend edition of False Flag Weekly News. You can listen to or watch FFWN above. Below is a transcript of my Easter Weekend 2025 conversation with Dennis Kucinich.
Kevin Barrett Interviews Denis Kucinich on “The Passion of Palestine”
Welcome to the Truth Jihad podcast. I'm Kevin Barrett bringing on the most important voices I can find in the world telling it like it is way outside of the mainstream. And sometimes I find people who've been inside of the mainstream who are willing to tell the truth about these issues that most people aren't. And one of them is Congressman Dennis Kucinich. He has been inside the U.S. political system as the youngest mayor of Cleveland, Ohio in its history in the late 1970s when I was an undergraduate in college, and he wasn't much older than I was. Then on to the pre and post 9/11 era, when Dennis Kucinich, along with Cynthia McKinney, was one of the handful of truth speakers in our Congress. And he's still calling it the way he sees it and is one of the most eloquent voices out of the United States. although he's still in the United States, unlike me. He just published a terrific piece called “The Cross and the Pieta, The Passion of Palestine,” an Easter message that everybody should attend to. So, hey, happy Easter, Denis Kucinich, and congratulations on continuing to do this ethically commendable work.
Kevin, thank you. Thank you for reaching out and inviting me to be on your podcast. I wrote that piece as part of my weekly Substack writings because of the sense of anguish that I feel—and as I have written, I know I'm not the only one—absolute anguish that I feel about this murderous attack on the people of Gaza. Last night... There was a bombing attack on a small tent city in Kan Yunus. And six children were burned to death, including three sisters. It's hard to even comprehend the kind of violence that is going on right now. And it's even much more difficult as an American to know that our tax dollars have paid for the bombs, the planes, the missiles, the drones, the rifles, the bullets, the intel, the AI. It's really a production that's made in America. And it's absolutely soul-shattering to consider that this is happening in this day and age, 2025, and that America is making it happen
With bipartisan support, it seems. It went on under Genocide Joe, and it's just as bad, if not worse, under Trump. What in the world has happened to the United States that allows it to do this?
Well, I think this is a metastatic colonial mindset that no longer looks at consequences. that only looks at what you can do as a result of this inflated sense of power that really is a leftover from another era, but people can't shake it. And, you know, this is why America has 800 bases around the world, that somehow it's our God-given right to control the affairs of the world. Well, it's not. The world has changed. The world is interdependent, it's interconnected. The things that happen in one place affect the whole world, and the things that are happening in Palestine right now, in Gaza, and in the West Bank, are moving people around the world.
And, you know, there's a question of just basic morality, what the poet Wordsworth called those primal human sympathies. Can't we understand that we're licensing the destruction of other human beings who have hopes and dreams and love their families, who try to eke out living under very difficult circumstances in Gaza, and yet their homes are blown up, they move to the streets, they live in tent cities, the tents are blown up. They're attacked by drones from the air. This is insane. You want to think it's some kind of a dystopian novel or a movie about a dystopian novel, but it's actually happening. And that's why I wrote about it. I'm beset by this. And I'm sure, as I said, Kevin, I'm not the only one. I know people are feeling feeling it around the world.
Yeah, here in Morocco they certainly are. It's actually kind of under the surface—it's a pressure cooker that's building up. Morocco's been a US-friendly country for a long time and maybe it'll stay that way forever, or maybe it won't. The Global South is really wondering what's gotten into the United States.
Your article compares this suffering (of Palestinians) to the suffering of Jesus. It occurs to me that the people of Palestine today are the descendants of the family of Jesus—that is the relatives of Jesus in (ancient) Palestine, those same people are still there. They may have changed religions once or twice, but obviously the European Zionists, to the extent that they would be descended from the people of Palestine, would be a lot less so than the Palestinians. When you write that the Palestinians are basically being crucified, yes, and this is Jesus' family's descendants that are being crucified. And there's a religious dimension to this, and American Christians seem to be kind of oblivious, or many of them at least. To what do you attribute this when the Christians in Palestine, of course, are screaming from the rooftops?
Well, there's always a danger when matters of state are conflated with religion. And you're right. Jesus was born in Bethlehem. He was referred to as Jesus of Nazareth. This is the Holy Land that he walked. This is where he performed his miracles. Years ago, my wife and I were in where Christ performed the miracle of changing water into wine. And we saw a building that was flattened where dozens of women and children sought refuge in the basement and they were all killed. And we were among the first to arrive after it happened. People knew I was an American congressman. And what they said is, look, we want peace. We don't hate Israel. We don't hate anyone. We want to live in peace. As they just... rifled through the debris to look for anything that remained as a token of their loved ones. By the way, from that trip I took back a a casing of the massive bomb that was dropped on it. It was of course made in the USA. I brought it back. And I have it to this day as a reminder of the inhumanity which my own nation visits on people.
I wrote this because this is Passion Week for those Christians who are observant. Today is the Last Supper, and then tomorrow is Good Friday, the Crucifixion, and Easter Sunday, the Resurrection. Well, we need to... to move our time frame focus on to what is happening in Gaza at this very moment and then bring in the historic narrative of the suffering of Jesus and how that suffering continues through the people that God has created and and placed in Gaza, in the West Bank, in Palestine.
Do you think that American Christians are misled by the aspects of their religion that include passages of Yahweh or God ordering genocide in the Old Testament?
Well, those of us who grew up in a Christian faith—I happen to be a Catholic—know that we moved from the Old Testament to the New Testament (which) was basically based on love and not on destruction, that there was a change in consciousness that Christ's appearance helped to bring: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Love your neighbor as yourself. The life of Christ is all about compassion and healing and transformation. It still is out there as a lesson for all of us, whatever our faith, or whether we have no faith.
It's a lesson...that when you reflect upon what's happening in this moment, as you and I speak, people are being killed. Why? What's this all about? The idea that there's some kind of manifest destiny at work in the Middle East for one nation, really? That a country that started this idea of manifest destiny to rule a country from coast to coast and beyond, somehow we still have this... this impulse towards control and destruction. It's not right. And that's why I wrote the piece. That's why I called it out. These things go beyond politics. The question is, who are we as human beings? Do we have a heart? Do we believe in a soul? Do we believe that... that there is some kind of divine justice if there's not justice in this world? Because if you connect with any of those things, you have to be horrified at what's going on.
So yes, I object mightily. I object as a private citizen, as I objected as a member of Congress, as a presidential candidate, saying these wars have to stop. We have to stop spending the treasure of our nation to keep piling bodies on bodies on bodies. It’s now a trillion-dollar budget item when we have people who do not have adequate housing in our own nation. People are ill-fed, ill-clothed. We're in an economic period of slump right now in America. And to ignore all that and to proceed with this punishing murderous attack on some of the poorest people on the planet who have zero ability to defend themselves. is not just indefensible, is not just a violation of every international law and treaty in existence, but it actually cries out to the high heavens. And so I'm just one voice. yelling into that void, if you will. And in the meantime, hopefully my words will cast some light on the conditions under which the people of Gaza are desperately trying to survive.
Well, your very eloquent article on the Cross and the Pieta, the Passion of Palestine, if it had been written and published by a foreign graduate student with a green card, with an American wife and an American baby, would probably put that student in danger of being deported to a gulag. What are your thoughts about this destruction of free speech for the purpose of protecting genocide perpetrators?
Congress shall make no law regarding an establishment of religion or an abridgment of the rights of a free press or free speech. I mean, that's the sentiments of our First Amendment. The attack on free speech is part of the licensing of a genocide. To tell people, well, you can't speak up. And I mean, look, the constitution and the laws of the country have been very clear that people who are green card holders are afforded the same constitutional privileges. As a matter of fact, there's been case law suggesting that people who are in this country are entitled to constitutional protections. But we've suddenly created a second class and third class citizens who if you disagree with the government's policies, they will ship you out of the country, even send you to a concentration camp in El Salvador. This is back to the days of rendition during the Iraq war. What do I think about it? I think that America has to change. that we have to set aside this impulse for empire, that we need to come home, that we need to stop subsidizing wars around the world and start looking at the practical aspirations of our own people for peaceful communities, for decent housing, for education, for healthcare, food on the table, be able to support families, a decent wage. These are all practical aspirations that people have, and have a right to have, in what professes to resemble a democracy or republic, depending on who you talk to. America must change. The world's changing around us. Look at the economic blocks that are formed with like Brazil, Russia, India, China, South Africa, and other nations coming in. You look at the defense treaties that have been signed between Russia and Iran of late, of the relationship between Iran and China, and you understand the danger of the U.S. proceeding with these threats of attacking Iran's nuclear infrastructure.
America must change. There's a madness running through our government these days and a disconnect between cause and effect, this idea that we can do anything to anybody and without consequence. No, that's not the way the world works. I believe there is such a thing as karma. What you do at some point comes back to you. And America's building up a lot of karma here in Gaza with the destruction of the Palestinian people.
Well, it's really a religious war. I won't go into the long version of it, but I've done a lot of research on how Zionism is an outgrowth of Jewish millenarian messianic thought (holding that) in the end times, there will be a Greater Israel, and the world will be ruled by God's chosen people from a rebuilt temple, and everything will be great, at least for the chosen people. Maybe not everybody else. So that's that narrative. And then, of course, we have the Christian and Muslim narratives that we expect Jesus to return and set things right. So there's a sort of a messianic end times flavor to this religious war that's led to this crucifixion of the Palestinians that you wrote about. And I wonder if the freedom of religion clause is also in danger along with the freedom of speech clause when we start revoking people's rights because they're on the wrong side of this (religious dispute). Chuck Schumer told AIPAC that “the problem with the Palestinians is that they don't accept the Torah. And the Torah gives us Jews the right to that land.” And then the millenarians say the right to everything.
I'm not a theologian and neither is Senator Schumer. But those who are familiar with Torah, and I have a passing familiarity, know that it, the Torah, doesn't license the killing that's going on right now. I mean, anybody can appropriate any religion for any purpose.
There was a song about fifty years ago called One Tinned Soldier that had lyrics something like this: “Go ahead and hurt your neighbor, go ahead and cheat a friend, do it in the name of heaven. You can justify it in the end.”
I subscribe to not some distant version of Christ appearing in the plain of Megiddo and we're all, or the elect, will suddenly be lifted up and everyone else has a problem. But in my religious education, we saw Christ not as some distant figure or maybe a figure that will appear in the future, but as a living being, part of our lives now, and that we're an extension of. And that this spiritual teaching—it's up to us to try to bring it to life every day. And, you know, it doesn't get much more complicated than the Ten Commandments. I mean, thou shalt not kill. There's... All of the moral teachings that all of us have had, whatever our religion, since we're growing up, everything's being set aside, not everything, but some are setting aside basic moral principles right now in a pursuit of a political agenda. One must not confuse Christianity with a more millennialist approach that's tied to the power of America. Nor should anyone confuse Judaism with this version of Zionism which is being used to legitimize slaughter.
And by the way, in Israel right now, there are enough people in Israel, both inside the government and outside the government, who are raising issues, questions about the practice of the government. And why isn't this war over? And is it being prolonged for political purposes? And is this just all a power grab aimed at keeping one person in office? There are people in Israel... who are very concerned about this path that is being pursued in their name, just as there are people in the United States, like myself, who are concerned about the path of destruction that is occurring in our name. So I write about it, Kevin, and I'll continue to write about it.
And again, during this period of Holy Week, Let's just hope that somehow that we can follow the lessons that are in our religious teachings and try to awaken the conscience of a nation to set aside violence, to fulfill that biblical injunction of... turning swords into plowshares and spears into pruning hooks. We must not be in a position where we're forever tied to this wheel of violence and death. So I'm going to continue to write, to speak out, and try to show not just my fellow Americans but people everywhere that there's another path, that we can take and that we must consciously choose another path if we are to survive.
Amen. So last question and hardest. Is there a way that ideals that you're espousing can effectively somehow be channeled into American politics in a way that will make a big difference or even a radical transformation? And specifically, I wrote in RFK Jr. for president in 2020. And so when he announced (for 2024) I was overjoyed. I thought yeah, maybe he could do it. He comes with his background and some of his views. And you became his campaign manager. And then I lost faith in him, probably, I assume, for part of the same reason that you did, which is that he seems to have a very strange relationship with Rabbi Smuley and genocidal Zionist ideology. And so I'm wondering, one, it's not going to be him. So who will it be? How could it happen? How soon could it happen? And number two, do you have any insight into why a man whose father was murdered by the same people who murdered his uncle—and they killed his father using a hypnotized Palestinian patsy, which tells us pretty much who did it—why does he take the view of Zionism that he does?
Well, you know, let me say this, that Israel does not have a stronger supporter than Robert F. Kennedy Jr. That's number one. And I'm not going to get into theories about assassinations, but I will tell you that his family has suffered grievously from the loss of his father, his uncle, and the tragedies that have befallen the Kennedy family across the board. He is my friend. Like we all have, we take leave to disagree with our friends. Even on matters of grave importance, that can happen.
As far as who, how do you change the American political system? Is it about just one person? I'm not sure of that. I do think, though, that the inability of the United States to meet the economic needs of its people, the fumbling that's gone on with tariffs and the scrambling in the stock market, the bond market, and the maldistribution of the wealth, even in this new round of tax cuts that'll accelerate the wealth even quicker and faster upwards. These are all things that are eroding the what we used to call the American dream. And America's ready for a restoration of that dream. Will it come soon? Well, I can tell you that even with the tremendous victory that the president had in his last election, you can go back to 1928… Herbert Hoover swept the victory in 1928, a massive Republican Congress followed. Then in 1932, everything flipped. Franklin Roosevelt came with a program of economic reform and brought in a Democratic Congress as well.
Of course, America's politics have changed. It's very difficult to establish a great difference between the two parties, especially since Supreme Court cases like Citizens United and Buckley v. Vallejo have enabled corporations to be people. People aren't even people anymore, apparently, but corporations are, and they give any kind of money they want to buy and sell politicians. But even with that, Americans, I think, still have somewhere embedded in our awareness of the potential for the forming of a more perfect union. That's part of our inheritance. Can things change? Of course they can. But we must be mindful that the abuses of power that are going on right now in our name are making it ever more difficult for America to keep its promise to our own people here at home, and to have the credibility around the world as a nation among nations instead of a nation that's trying to impose its will on other nations.
So thank you so much, Kevin. And if people are interested, they can go to Dennis Kucinich at Substack and read my columns, and you can get a free subscription. You don't have to pay. If you don't have the money, just sign up for free, and you'll receive our weekly columns that are written by myself. And my wife occasionally will write a column. She, by the way, is...brilliant expert on agroecology and has written some very important pieces that are published on the Kucinich Report. So, Kevin, thank you. And if I get to Morocco, I'll stop by and say hi.
You know, we have a guest bedroom for you here near the best beach in Africa anytime you want. Thank you, Dennis Kucinich, Congressman, and, you know, the last eloquent and honest voices in American politics. Keep up the great work and God bless you. Happy Easter.
Thank you so much. Happy Easter.
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